Stories from Beyond Academia #11: Chloe Lim
(PhD in Medical Science)
Somehow we’ve made it to the final post for 2023 - where does the time go?!
We really hope you’re enjoying reading these stories from beyond academia as much as we’ve enjoyed hearing them (and sharing them with you!).
We did a bit of reflecting in our last post, but seeing this is the final final post for this year, here’s one more quick opportunity - tell us, what are you hoping to see more of next year? We look forward to seeing you on the flip side!
One more thing - we’ve still got some availability for talks and workshops in early 2024, so if your department, faculty, student association or university is interested in career transitions for PhDs, please reach out to us at hello@sequitur.consulting.
So, now, without further ado, here’s to our final story from beyond academia for 2023…
At various times, we’ve heard a PhD described as a means to develop a specialist skill set in ‘learning how to learn’. Sure, we concede, this sounds a bit vague.
But this story from beyond academia might just give one or two practical anecdotes to make this idea of ‘learning how to learn’ more real for you…
We introduce Dr Chloe Lim: a PhD in Medical Science, who worked in academia for several years before moving into the world of translational research – establishing (from scratch!) and then running a clinical trial in a biotech startup trying to develop a novel epigenetic drug to treat metastatic breast cancer.
After that, Chloe moved into a government role in regulatory evaluation – but with a large side serving of entrepreneurship: teaching herself balloon twisting and becoming a professional balloon artist (a finalist in a recent reality TV show), learning how to be a career coach, and starting up a podcast to highlight the career stories and challenges of culturally and linguistically diverse women (CALD) in the STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering and Maths) disciplines called ‘CALD Voices in STEM’.
Jonathan McGuire: Chloe - thanks so much for joining us for this discussion, I’m really excited to hear about your background in academia, your move out of academia and what you're doing now. To start things off, could tell us a bit about what you did for your PhD?
Chloe Lim: Sure, and thanks so much for having me as well - I'm very thankful for this opportunity to share a bit about my story! I was working on epigenetics during my PhD: I have a PhD in Medical Science. And I was interested in medical science because I was always interested in how the body works. I got into the area of epigenetics through an opportunity to do a summer research project during my undergraduate degree program. I did my undergrad in New Zealand, in Wellington, but the Australian National University (in Canberra, Australia) has summer research projects, and that was one of the ways to entice people to come and do research really. So I moved over to Australia to do this summer research project, and I stayed on and did an honours year with a supervisor specialising in epigenetics. I was really interested in molecular biology, I was interested in how things work at a molecular level, and that prompted me to do a PhD in epigenetics as well.
My PhD was looking at the role of chromatin and how it can regulate gene expression in the immune system. I was looking at when you put a stimulus in a cell, when you stimulate the immune cells, what is it that surrounds the DNA that causes a gene to be switched on or switched off. And what you find is that there is this layer of regulation called histone modification, that sort of signals on the DNA, whether the DNA is to be opened or closed. For a gene to be expressed, the DNA needs to be opened up so that all the polymerases and the transcription enzymes can attach to the DNA and read the DNA and transcribe the DNA.
So what I did was to look at it at a genomic level - I looked across the whole genome at the immune genes, at how those histone modifications are set up. And I found there were certain patterns of histone modifications that are linked to these immune genes that causes it to be expressed. It was a very interesting time because when I did my PhD - I graduated from my PhD in 2010 - genome sequencing was quite a hot topic and being able to do a bit of bioinformatics and understanding more about the histone modifications at a genomic level was quite novel. We found that certain immune genes have that specific histone modifications associated with it, the genes that are switched off have a different type of histone modification that's associated, so you can see the epigenetic pattern that is regulating gene expression at the immune level.
JM: When you were graduating from your PhD I was actually working for a genome wide association study for schizophrenia. I wish that I'd had you there to explain epigenetics to me at that point, because I remember everyone was talking about it and I was extremely confused.
CL: Never too late to learn! Yeah, that's a very interesting field - genome wide associated sequencing.
JM: And you know, everyone was saying there's this new epigenetics thing that everyone's talking about - I'm sure it actually wasn't, but it felt like all of a sudden everyone in the field was talking about how we take that into account in this study. And so, given where you were placed at the time, did you stay on in academia after your PhD?
CL: Yes, after I finished my PhD, I went on to do a postdoctoral fellowship with my PhD supervisor, but it was only for a year because she decided to close down the lab - she decided to retire from academia, and so I had to find a different lab to go to in order to continue my postdoc. I had the opportunity to move to the University of Canberra to continue my postdoc, and I worked on a similar project there - still epigenetics and still working in the immune system.
I was in academia for a while - I did my postdoc for about four years, and then I continued on and got promoted to a research fellow for another three years. And it was an interesting time, because during that time I started a family too. I was, I guess, a typical academic mum, juggling career and family, and it was a challenging time because I had to take two periods of maternity leave. I have three children but took two periods of maternity leave - my first pregnancy was a single child and my second pregnancy was twins - so it was an interesting time for sure! I had the opportunity to do some lecturing and I really enjoyed teaching - I was teaching molecular biology, and I was still doing research as well. And I was doing a lot of work supervising students too: honours and PhD students.
And then towards the end of my academic life, my supervisor decided to start a biotech startup, trying to develop a novel epigenetic drug to treat metastatic breast cancer. She was looking for someone to run the clinical trials and I thought this would be a good opportunity to try something different. I've always been doing research. I know how that's done in a way. And so I thought I'd give this a go. I became the clinical trials coordinator for this phase one breast cancer trial that we were running. And it was a really exciting opportunity for me because at that time no one was running clinical trials at the university. I had to pioneer setting up the clinical trial from beginning to end: setting up all the systems for record keeping for the experimental side of things, making sure that we had all the facilities and equipment we needed for capturing all the results and making sure that all the data would be stored well, and with integrity. It was a great opportunity to be able to move into, I guess you might say translational research, because what I was doing was very much basic research, understanding how epigenetic works at a molecular level, and in this role we were able to translate that to the bedside and use that to treat patients and help them have a better life.
JM: That's already a fascinating transition and the idea of setting that up as a ‘one woman show’, from scratch – what a huge undertaking! You definitely sound like you don't mind being busy! I've got a toddler and an infant and the idea of there being two infants seems overwhelming to me.
CL: Yeah, at that point I had three under three - those years were a blur, I tell you, I don't really remember what happened.
It took me a few tries to get an interview, and a few more before I got a position: it did take me a little while to get into government, but I think at each step it was me learning what is required to secure a government role
JM: Hats off to you for getting through it all! And so was it from the clinical trials position that you then moved out of academia entirely?
CL: The labs that I joined either decided to close down or move! The lab that I was working in for the clinical trials, the supervisor decided to move interstate and she was going to move the research lab with her as well. And because I had a family, moving wasn't an option that I was considering. I was offered the opportunity to stay on as a research fellow to keep doing research - in fact it was going to be epigenetics in sports science, so that would have been quite an interesting field to get into. However, I was a little bit burnt by the environment that I was in.
An example that I can share with you is that I was really interested in doing lecturing, I really wanted to convene a unit and I was due to convene a unit on innovation and entrepreneurship for the faculty of science, but when I started that off with my supervisor, I was getting ready to go on my second maternity leave and so I had to pass that on to someone else to take over. When I came back from maternity leave, I found out that they canceled the course or stopped the unit, but then later on, I found out just speaking to someone else that they were actually lecturing for that unit. I was naturally quite disappointed and very upset by the fact that they were still running the unit but didn't get me back to be involved.
And so, and I think this is part of the problem, I think in academia sometimes you're overlooked for positions, you're overlooked for certain opportunities, and sometimes it can be very dependent on the people that you know in your network, and how they choose to support the people around them. For me, I realised that environment wasn't really going to be most conducive for me, and I was looking for something different to do as well. And I've always been interested by government work, how things are managed at this bigger level. I feel like people in research can be quite sheltered in some ways, we were so focused on our research area, we know all the different researchers that are in that area. But then when you get to government, you see that there's so many more moving parts.
My world view of ‘how things work’ has expanded so much since I got into government. So that was my impetus to move into government, and I applied for a few different jobs. It took me a few tries to get an interview, and a few more before I got a position: it did take me a little while to get into government, but I think at each step it was me learning what is required to secure a government role and understanding the way that you have to interview and the way that you have to present yourself as well.
JM: In that process, was there anything specific you were doing to prepare? Were you coming away from an interview that didn't go well and saying, ‘all right, this is the thing I picked up that I’ve got to do next time’?
CL: I always like to seek feedback, and after each application rejection or interview rejection I would reach out to the interviewer or the panel to ask them for feedback. And I think it's also a matter of reading a little bit more about the area to get an understanding of what it is that they're after, and really doing a lot of research on how you need to be interviewing for a position in government as well. Crafting those answers and tweaking the answers based on experience: so it's a matter of reflection, improving the answers and trying it out again. I think with any job application, really, it's that process of iteration, of learning from your previous experience so that you can bring that into your next interview.
JM: Absolutely. And how did you decide what jobs to apply for or what field to go into?
CL: I've always been interested in how the body works, that's why I got into medical science. And that is also why I decided to look for a role in the Department of Health and Aged Care, because I know that the vision of the Department is to improve the health and well-being of Australians. And that has a much more direct impact on how we can be helping people get healthier. I perform scientific evaluations in the Department, so I'm still using my scientific skills in this area. And for me, I still love my science - I'm not a policy type of person, really, but I really enjoy going through scientific evidence, clinical trial evidence, things to do with human health. And the role that I'm currently in allows me that opportunity to really understand more about what is it that makes a person healthy, how is it that they can have all these symptoms and what can we do to help them improve their health? For me, being able to use my scientific knowledge and apply it in this way was just the best way to move somewhat laterally: from clinical trials to evaluating clinical trial evidence.
JM: I sort of jokingly said before that you obviously like to keep busy, and that work is just one of the many things you do. I'm really fascinated by the variety of experiences you've had, all the things that you're doing and the entrepreneurial pursuits that you're currently undertaking. I’d love to hear a bit about your approach to your career and the other things you're working on at the moment?
CL: Yes, in addition to being a scientist, I am also an entrepreneur: I have a party entertainment service specialising in balloon twisting, so I'm a professional balloon artist. I got into that because my pastor from my previous church was looking for a balloon twister for a community event but no-one put their hand up and so I said I’d give it a go. So, as you do, you go on YouTube, you figure something out, and you're like, ‘oh my gosh!’. I thought it was so much fun, I made my first balloon dog and I got hooked.
I was looking to start a side business at that time, and so I thought I’d try and do something with this. I didn't know how it was going to be, I'd never started a business like this before, but then I thought I'll just jump in and I'll just figure it out as I go. Now I'm very thankful because the business has been growing and it's profitable. In fact, it actually got me on TV - I was on Channel 7’s ‘Blow Up’ reality TV show which showed earlier this year in May 2023. I got to the top five finalists of that show. It's just amazing. I think when you find something you enjoy doing and I think if it's something that brings you joy and makes you feel happy, and if you pursue excellence - I think one of the things that has helped me is that I always strive for excellence, I try to go the extra mile for my clients for my customers - and I think that really helps to lift the game and really showcase what you can do.
In addition to that I'm also a career coach as well. John Maxwell is one of the top leadership experts in the world and I have a Maxwell leadership certification so I can tap into John Maxwell's resources. That’s the other thing I'm really passionate about: being able to empower women to take charge of their career. Because part of my own experience is that I was sort of letting other people move my career, and I wasn't really very clear on what I really wanted. And so what I want to do is to be able to help others find that clarity, so that they can have that confidence to go for what they want.
And so I serve as an advisor, mentor, and coach for different non-profit organisations because I think it's really important to support especially women in STEM - that's the area that I'm really passionate about is women in STEM, who might be struggling in their career journey, or who might need someone who's few steps ahead of them to be able to show them or guide them in their own career path as well.
I guess there's that stigma of ‘if you leave academia it means that you failed at academia’. I disagree with that. I think you choose your path. And whatever it is that you want to choose to do that is your vision of how you want your life to be.
JM: That's such valuable work. Is there a particular theme that you see comes up for women in STEM a lot in your work?
CL: I think gender equity is a huge challenge for women in STEM. You can see that not only in the drop-off of women at the mid-career stage level, but you also see that as you go up the career ladder, as you go up those leadership levels, you'll find less and less women present at those levels. And there are multiple reasons for that. One is the fact that sometimes they don't feel that they are able to do it. They might have family commitments, but there's also the challenge of not having that same opportunity or people who are able to sponsor them into that leadership position as well.
One of the things that we find is really important is to help women to promote themselves and to help them find other people who can promote them too. I think part of the problem is sometimes women are naturally hesitant to promote themselves. They're hesitant to speak up for what they want. And so we need to support them and give them that voice and give them that confidence as well to be able to do that because the women that are in STEM actually have to work doubly hard to get to where they are, especially those in leadership positions. And this shouldn't be a challenge for women. It should be something that is more equitable for anyone who wants to do STEM.
Now, if you're a woman of color, or if you're culturally and linguistically diverse, then you have an added barrier. So women in STEM generally have this glass ceiling, but culturally diverse women or women of colour have a concrete ceiling. It's like this double barrier that you find and one of the challenges that I know of, especially of migrant women, is that when they come over to Australia to work, they can't really find employment at the job that they are skillful because their overseas qualification is not recognised. And so, yes, this is a huge challenge that we need to overcome, because we have this skills gap that we need to attend to in STEM, and you have these people who are qualified, but you're not giving them the opportunity to fill in those positions. I think it's a huge challenge that we're still trying to tackle.
JM: And on that topic, you also have a podcast about culturally and linguistically diverse women in STEM. Can you tell us a bit about that?
CL: Yes, so I started a podcast called ‘CALD Voices in STEM’. And what I do in this podcast is highlight the career stories and challenges of culturally and linguistically diverse women in STEM. And I don't just pick superstars of STEM: I want to highlight the stories of all women in STEM, at different levels of their career, different stages, wherever they are at in the journey. I'm up to episode two right now, episode three will be released very soon. And the stories that I've heard of the challenges that the women are facing it can be quite disheartening, but I think what is important about sharing these stories is for other women to hear the stories and to know that they are not alone in their situation, they can also learn from these other women who have broken through that barrier, the challenges that they have faced, and know that they can do it as well. I really hope that this podcast will be an opportunity for women to be inspired and empowered to make a change, to make an impact, wherever they are working.
JM: This next question is about what skills, knowledge or experience have carried over from your PhD into your work. So obviously, you mentioned the regulatory evaluation work, so some of the hard skills are very relevant there, what else do you think has carried over?
CL: I think we learn so many transferable skills during the PhD and I think that's probably part of the reason why I could build all my businesses as well - a lot of the skills I've learned from my PhD I've applied not only in my government role, but also in my entrepreneurial pursuits as well. I think some of the key skills and knowledge that I have transferred from my PhD or that I brought along with me is communication - being able to communicate verbally and also in a written manner, especially in my work in government, where I have to write a lot of reports. Another thing is being able to think analytically and critically about things that I'm reading.
And definitely problem-solving skills: in any role that you're doing, you're solving a specific problem. In my government work, I'm solving how to perform evaluations in a way that is going to be helpful for the public. In my business pursuits, I'm trying to figure out how can I solve this problem that my client has in a much better way and to serve them in a better way as well. So that problem-solving skill is very important and developed from doing your PhD: we're always encountering problems, experiments fail on us, and we have to improvise or figure out how to fix it. Having those really, really strong problem-solving skills is important and that mindset to just push through regardless of all the failures is very important.
The other key thing is planning and organisational skills. You have to do so much planning, organising your experiments, making sure everything's lined up before you start an experiment. And I think all of these planning skills and organisational skills are really beneficial in all aspects of life - especially once you have children too, and the more children you have, the more organised you have to be!
JM: I'm learning that lesson. One final question for you: what advice would you give to someone who's considering switching out of academia?
CL: Hmm yeah, it can be quite scary. I guess there's that stigma of ‘if you leave academia it means that you failed at academia’. I disagree with that. I think you choose your path. And whatever it is that you want to choose to do that is your vision of how you want your life to be. So in terms of switching out of academia, I would suggest and recommend people try and understand more of their strengths - what is it that they did enjoy in academia? Because these are the things that will carry you through in your next role. And then, if you realise ‘I've got this passion, I've got this strength’ then thinking about what is it that you can do outside of academia where you can use this strength and passion?
And I think the other thing that's really important is we can always read a job description, but it doesn't really tell us a lot about the job. Sometimes you might have an inkling, but it may not necessarily be what you think it is. So I would also suggest networking with people who are in the areas, or are in the roles that you're interested in, to find out a bit more about it and figure out for yourself if that's actually what you want to do as your next step. I would encourage doing all this career planning beforehand, and then, if you want it, then go for it!
JM: What a wonderful way to wrap up, and I absolutely agree: plan out what you want to do and then go for it!
And with that, we thank Chloe for sharing her story with us, and for leaving us with a question to reflect on… So, what are the things you enjoy (or enjoyed) in academia? And what are your strengths and passions?
If you are a PhD who has moved beyond academia and you are interested in sharing your story, please get in touch with us via our LinkedIn pages - Sam, Jonathan - we’d love to hear from you.
Interviews have been edited for length and clarity. Views, thoughts, and opinions expressed by persons interviewed in this series are solely that of the persons interviewed and do not reflect the views, opinions, or position of Sam, Jonathan or Sequitur Consulting.