Stories from Beyond Academia #2: Regine Zopf

PhD in Cognitive Science

Dr Regine Zopf (PhD in Cognitive Science)

As promised, in this interview we introduce another of our PhD cohort, Dr Regine Zopf.

Another PhD in Cognitive Science, and another who combined parenting with PhD and then postdoc life. We are in awe of this level of juggling!

Following her PhD, Regine found a substantial amount of early career research success. First, she landed a postdoc. Then she was awarded a prestigious fellowship: the Australian Research Council Discovery Early Career Researcher Award (DECRA). She followed that up with another postdoc in Germany, before moving back to Australia and moving out of academia and into her current government role. She tells us how ‘the time was right’ to make the switch to a role beyond academia.

We’re grateful to hear Regine’s insights from her journey. 

She talks us through some things she misses from academic life. 

She gives her perspective on what academic life is like to live with (Regine’s partner remains in academia). 

And she shares an unexpected luxury from her new role beyond academia.

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Jonathan McGuire: Hi Regine, good to see you! All right, let me just get my ‘interviewer voice’ on, and then maybe we’ll jump straight into it: could you tell us what field you were in and what you were studying for your PhD?

Regine Zopf: Well, I did a PhD in cognitive science, like you. My PhD is in perception. I studied how we perceive our own bodies, how we feel ownership for our bodies, how we know where our bodies are in space. And to do this I studied multi-sensory perception: how different senses are combined to know where the body is in space. I also studied multi-sensory perception in cognitive disorders like schizophrenia or eating disorders and I found that this multi-sensory information is combined in a slightly changed way in these disorders, ownership can be felt differently. I used a bodily illusion, called the rubber hand illusion, across my research career. In this illusion, if you place a fake hand in front of a participant and stroke the rubber hand along with their own hand, then it can feel as if the rubber hand is your own body. I used the illusion as a tool to study how different senses are combined and how this illusion is changed in particular cognitive disorders.

JM: I remember participating in one of the rubber hand illusion experiments! I can’t recall all the details, but I remember it being a very strange experience. I felt like I had two left hands, and I had that traditional reaction of feeling horrified at the idea that some harm might occur to the rubber hand. So your research showed that it is experienced differently by people with various kinds of disorders?

RZ: Yep, that illusion is much stronger in people with an eating disorder. Also in schizophrenia, it can be stronger. Interestingly, there is also a lot of variation in participants without a cognitive disorder, some feel it very strongly (like you) compared to others who don’t feel any change, and we don’t know why this is the case.

JM: You also had your first child during your PhD, right? That must have been pretty intense! How did you juggle the two? 

RZ: I took a bit of time off and then my parents came and helped me ease back into work. And it was definitely a juggle, trying to keep a head in science as well. But I was able to work flexibly and part-time so it allowed me to combine the two. Working part time actually also helped me, I think. I could do the PhD over a time period that was a bit longer and it allowed me to publish, because the publication process can take quite a few months or a year or two years to publish something. I was able to publish a bit more before I finished, I guess, so it had advantages as well.

JM: I'd never thought of that advantage of taking longer, but you're absolutely right. The publication process does require that time to elapse.

RZ: Yeah, you have that and it kind of gives you an advantage when writing grants and applying for fellowships.

JM: And were you working at the same time as well or you focused just on the PhD?

RZ: I was not working much, just a little RA work. I was mostly just doing the PhD.

JM: You went from your PhD into a lot of success as an early career researcher, you got a DECRA which is a very competitive grant and you did a couple of postdocs. Can you tell us a bit about what your life as an early career researcher was like and what it was like getting those opportunities?

RZ: It was really good. I first got a postdoc in cognitive science. And a year later, actually, I was pregnant with my second child, and the second child was born just a few days after the DECRA. So that happened pretty much at the same time. And again, the postdoc allowed me to work flexibly, I could work part time, and I stretched the DECRA across a few years. Because I went on maternity leave, and then worked 50% for a couple of years and then 70% for the rest, I stretched the DECRA - instead of three years it was five years or six years. And again, it was full on having two children and the postdoc but it was flexible and I lived quite close to the uni so I had an easy commute and the children were in daycare at the university, and so that worked quite well. I really enjoyed being a postdoc, I learned a lot of things I didn't learn during my PhD. Like project management, running several projects at the same time and also supervising master's students, and leading a small research team of students and research assistants. So that was a really interesting time and I learned a lot.

JM: And did you stay in that bodily representation research area?

RZ: Yes, I did more with virtual reality during this time. I used virtual reality to change and measure different things, how we move in space and how different signals are combined.

JM: What was being in that postdoc like, in terms of things like work life balance and your enjoyment of work?

RZ: It was certainly busy. It was sort of all a mix of work and family. I took work home, but at the same time it was flexible work, so I could just leave and pick the kids up and then do a little bit more after they were in bed. It was busy and it was stressful, but it was the flexible work that made it possible.

JM: You mentioned moving into that postdoc, running multiple projects, leading a small team. Just wondering if you had any reflections on how it felt being a postdoc compared to how it felt being a PhD student?

RZ: It was definitely more stressful. As a PhD, you could do one project at a time usually (that's how I did it at least - one project after the other). As a postdoc, there's definitely much more in parallel as well as supervising others who need guidance and need to be able to continue their work. You have to be switched on for them as well, so they don't run out of work. In having two children as well, there was a lot more project management involved and keeping projects going. There was more collaboration, collaborative projects which also needed attention, and a bit more teaching as well. I did teaching during my postdoc.

JM: One thing that some career academics have said to me, is that they think back to how good they had it in their PhD days because they didn't have to do any grant applications or anything like that. Did you find that?

RZ: Yes. It was definitely easier during the PhD. In terms of headspace, you could really think deeply about the problem and the research literature. Yeah, it was definitely the case.

JM: So you stayed in academia for ten years, or close to?

RZ: I stretched the DECRA for a long time!

JM: I mean, that sounds like a really good strategy to be honest.

RZ: Sometimes I think maybe I should have not stretched it for so long but it doesn't matter now, it was good, it had a purpose.

JM: Absolutely, and you've since moved over into government work, and you've done that relatively recently? What motivated the change for you?

RZ: After the DECRA finished, I had plans to go to Germany. I went to Germany for a year - I had a fellowship to go to there and so I did that. When I came back, and also before, I wrote a couple of grants which didn't get up. So I was looking for jobs in Sydney, but there wasn't much around. We wanted to stay in Sydney, we didn't want to move anywhere else internationally or even nationally. I always said to myself that I’d stay in academia as long as I can, but then when it's not possible anymore, then I'll make the switch or switch to something else. And it sort of happened then, I needed to do something else. And I was ready for it. 

JM: So you'd always had a sense that there would possibly be a time when you did the switch?

RZ: Definitely. I always thought I'll just keep going and then see what happens.

JM: So you reached that point and thought ‘now is that time’. What field did you go into? And how did you choose that field?

RZ: I work for the NSW government. I am now working as an analyst for Women NSW in the NSW Premier’s Department. I looked for work where I can make a change in society. And that's also what motivated my research - I wanted to make a change in people's life with my work. Originally, I wanted to work in the mental health space, I was really interested in that and am still interested in that. But then the job at Women NSW came up and I'm also interested in gender equality and making a contribution in that area. So they accepted me and I was really happy with that. And I'm really enjoying the work that I'm doing now.

JM: It sounds like that decision was kind of values-based. You mentioned your interest in mental health and also the interest in gender equality. Was that something that you explicitly took into account when you were doing that initial job search?

RZ: Yes, I was concentrating on government jobs when I was applying. I looked a bit into work as research assistant and research-based jobs at universities, but not really. I was more concentrated on government jobs.

JM: And within those fields that were aligned with your values, how did you decide to go into the data analytics part of that rather than, say, policy or some other aspect of it?

RZ: Oh, there was something in the application that I felt was something I could do - I could contribute to data analysis because that's what I really enjoyed as a PhD and as a postdoc, to analyse data and contribute my analytical skills. I guess that's sort of what made the decision, I felt I can work with Excel and I can program R and when I read the sort of work that was needed in the applications, then it became clear that was something I could do. Whereas in policy, I don't have much background. I mean, I know a bit more about it now, but I didn't really have much background in that before. Now I have more experience with doing different things than just data analysis, I have more experience with running evaluations for example. So I guess my skills have also broadened in my job now so I can apply for other kind of jobs later on, if I want to.

JM: I'm thinking about my own experience, where at the start of my PhD, I wasn't particularly interested in data and statistics and about a third of the way through I did a particular piece of research and I realised this is super powerful. Was the data, stats, analysis, was that something you were always interested in? Or did you discover a love for that during the PhD?

RZ: No, I was always. I was really interested in research and programming and I was really keen to do that.

JM: Better than me then. I got a pass mark in statistics in my undergrad, which I've been trying to outrun ever since! When you started to look for roles outside of academia, was there anything specific that you did to prepare for that switch like building up particular skills or knowledge? Anything like that?

RZ: Well, one thing was I made sure I learned R. I heard that this is quite valued outside of academia and used quite a bit for analysis. So in my postdoc I made sure I did some analysis with R because I'd always used MATLAB before; I made sure I did a bit of that in R to get used to that. And then closer, I created a LinkedIn profile, which I didn't have before. I looked around on LinkedIn to get an orientation of what kind of jobs there are and what other people did. And then also talked to all kinds of people who worked outside of academia and got an idea of what their jobs are like. And then I wrote and prepared a CV.

JM: I was going to ask about that, because the academic CV is so different to an industry CV. What was your experience like sitting down and converting all your academic experience into that industry CV format?

RZ: My academic CV is actually 20 pages or something, with all the publications and all the teaching; it was very long and that was really tricky. I actually met up with Sam and Sam shared her CV with me which was really nice and it was like one page! So, very different. I sat down and, with that example, created a one page CV and that was good to have.

JM: We’ve talked a bit about non-academic careers to people from academic backgrounds, and as soon as we mention our one page CVs, I feel like we’re going to see tears running down some people's faces as they feel they’re going to lose all that glorious detail about their publications. It can be a real challenge. We mentioned it hasn't been particularly long since you changed sectors. And you've gone into government out of academia. What's been your impression so far of how they’re different? How they’re the same? All that sort of thing?

RZ: Okay. Yeah, I really like it. The biggest difference is for me to have a manager. I always keep going on about this, it's such a luxury, someone who thinks for you and gives you tasks. And I have a really good manager, she's actually also a PhD in psychology and she sort of understands me. She's really good at giving us tasks and having the manager role. So that's the biggest difference. It really takes away some of the cognitive load that comes with having to always think, ‘Oh, what's my next step? How do I need to do this?’ And that was always part of research, where I always had to think of where to go next. I feel like for me it allows me to concentrate on data analysis and doing the research, evaluating projects and doing all the work that I really like, like programming. So that's the biggest difference. And then, of course, it's the work life balance as well. I can work seven hours a day and if I work more I get leave. And that's of course a big difference. I can do eight to four so I can pick up the kids and have the afternoon free, which is nice.

JM: So, if I'm not mistaken, your partner is also an academic. What's it like having an academic and someone who's working outside of academia in the house? What's the academic lifestyle kind of look like from the outside?

RZ: Yeah, he's really busy and he's always juggling. Especially when he's teaching, he's really busy and juggles a lot of things. I guess he's a bit more senior, so maybe he doesn't have the pressure that you have as a postdoc. He's already past that, so he's not as extremely stressed as he could be, but he's still busy and juggling and he can't switch off at 4pm: he's still working longer and sometimes has to work evenings and weekends. But I must say I do sometimes miss academia as well, the creativity and the research, and discovering new things. 

JM: There is absolutely a trade off, for sure. And thinking about this new career path that you've recently embarked on, what skills or knowledge or experience from your academic work and your PhD before that, have you found is transferred over to this new context?

RZ: I guess, the analytical skills and being able to think and make sense of information. That's definitely important. And how to structure tasks as well. My manager sometimes says that this is something that I'm able to do probably because of this background, to structure tasks and work through tasks, and even if there's not so much information, I can still find something and make it work. And then there's also the programming skills, like R skills, and the writing skills. And the project management skills.

JM: You mentioned the ability to make it work when there's maybe incomplete information. One of the things we've heard in our travels so far is that some employers may worry that people from an academic background will only be able to make a decision when there's reams and reams and reams of research done on something and that they're going to be uncomfortable making decisions based on incomplete information. So you're saying you've felt the opposite?

RZ: I would say it's the opposite. In research, you're always a bit in the dark; you don't know what's going to happen and if it's going to work and how it's going to work. You have to still build a project around it and have a result at the end even. Even though you didn't know where to go, you had to kind of find the path.

JM: Actually, you saying that it makes me think like that's a pretty fundamental part of doing research - you only do research in the places where you don't know what's going to happen.

RZ: Exactly, exactly. Yep.

JM: That's interesting. There's perhaps a nice analogy there for leaving academia and going into a non-academic job: going into a place where you don't know what's going to happen…

RZ: Yeah, definitely.

JM: Well before I push the analogy too far, I've got one final question for you. From your own experience, is there any advice that you'd give to someone who's considering making a move from academia into another sector? 

RZ: I guess one thing I’ve learned is that the work outside academia can also be really, really interesting and challenging. And that’s something I like about work, when it challenges you and keeps you interested. And I mean, that's quite obvious, but I wasn't expecting it. I can use my analytical skills, for example, to the same extent outside of academia. And then, that there are a lot of skills one learns in academia that are then transferable to the fields outside as well.

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And with that, we thank Regine for sharing her story with us. We’re certainly thinking about management in a new light now (shout out to the good managers out there - a luxury indeed!) and we hope Regine continues to find challenging and interesting work beyond academia.

We hope you’re finding the diversity of experience illuminating, even just from the stories shared so far. 

And if you are a PhD who has moved beyond academia and you are interested in sharing your story, please get in touch with us via LinkedIn (Sam, Jonathan) - we’d love to hear from you.

Views, thoughts, and opinions expressed by persons interviewed in this series are solely that of the persons interviewed and do not reflect the views, opinions, or position of Sam, Jonathan or Sequitur Consulting.