Stories from Beyond Academia #10: Miranda Batten
(PhD in Pharmacy)
You know that feeling you get when you take a break from something, and how when you return to it later things have changed but somehow also stayed the same? Like when you go to visit some friends from a previous time in your life (reunions anyone?), or even just when you return to work after a holiday. Because, of course, time marches on: what you’ve been away from has changed, and you’ve changed too.
Well, Dr Miranda Batten has a story about just that. Miranda had an established career in health and pharmacy, and was working in a senior policy role in a government health service. And she then sought a period of leave without pay from her employer to pursue a PhD in Pharmacy, with her research evaluating an on-site pharmacist intervention in residential aged care facilities.
Miranda just recently finished that PhD, and has now returned to her role.
In this conversation, Miranda reminded us about this feeling of things changing but also staying the same, and reflected on the beneficial skills she brought into her PhD from her career as well as the beneficial skills she’s developed from her PhD that she’s taken back with her.
Jonathan McGuire: Hi Miranda, and thanks for joining us. I’d like to kick things off right back at the very start of your career – you worked in health and pharmacy for a while before you started your PhD. Could you tell us a bit about the start of your career and what inspired you to go and pursue a PhD?
Miranda Batten: For sure, yes. My first job was as a pharmacy assistant at my local community pharmacy. And based on that experience, I thought working in pharmacy could be a career option for me. So I finished year 12, applied and was accepted to an interstate university to undertake an undergraduate pharmacy course. But I actually deferred that offer: I took a year off so that I could do a public sector apprenticeship with the Northern Territory (NT) government. This gave me a bit of a sense about what public sector work looks like, and I think probably I knew in the back of my mind that I would go back at some point to the public sector, even after I finished my pharmacy degree and had worked in that space. So when I finished my university degree, I was a hospital intern - I went back to where I grew up to be closer to family. And from there, I did a little bit of work in community pharmacy. In my mind, I thought I’d spend one year doing community pharmacy, then I’d go back into the public sector and do something in health but where I'd use my pharmacy knowledge. And that actually ended up happening a little bit earlier: I ended up working as a regulatory pharmacist and then as the NT Chief Pharmacist for about 18 months and from there moved on into other health policy roles. And things just kind of continued from there.
As to the other part of your question - I wouldn't say that I was necessarily inspired to do a PhD. I didn't identify a topic that I would die on a hill to passionately discuss. I undertook a Masters of Public Health that I really enjoyed, I really liked the qualitative research side - I knew having worked at the University of Western Australia’s Department of Rural Health that there are people with PhDs, they're working in universities and that might be interesting but I never properly looked into it until I was helping someone who needed to coach some people. And at that point, I couldn't actually identify any other goals so I mentioned I would look into doing a PhD. Then I consulted Google and the first thing that came up was that there was a scholarship at University of Canberra for a PhD candidate to help with evaluating a pharmacist intervention in aged-care facilities, they want someone with qualitative experience, they want someone who's interested in mixed methods research, and one of the supervisors was actually someone I knew back from my time in the Northern Territory. So I just reached out and it kind of just went from there.
JM: That's serendipity and synchronicity right there...
MB: Right place at the right time, ticking a lot of boxes, and fortuitous that I had a bit of savings and could live on a PhD scholarship for a while.
JM: Can I just come back to something you mentioned earlier, about regulatory pharmacists... I haven't heard of this profession before. What does a regulatory pharmacist do?
MB: So each of the different states and territories in Australia have legislation that sets out what different health professionals, and others, can do when it comes to supplying or prescribing or administering medicines. I had very little exposure to that particular role, that pharmacists could do. The only real time that I'd ever heard that type of role existed was when I was at uni, and we had one guest lecturer who was a poisons inspector in New South Wales. And I thought that sounded interesting.
JM: You worked in that area for a while - did you stay around in that regulatory space and then go straight into the PhD from there?
MB: No, I worked in the Northern Territory in the regulatory space. Then I was a policy officer, where I was project managing the public and environmental health bill which then became an Act in the Northern Territory. And from there, my partner and I moved to Western Australia (WA) - I worked with a regional health service and supported them with the health service accreditation which every health service has to go through and I also worked with the University of Western Australia’s Department of Rural Health (WA Centre for Rural Health): that was more around being a pharmacist academic and supporting students on placements. And after that, when my dad got sick, I wanted to move close to him – he was based in New South Wales, so we made the move to the Australian Capital Territory and I started back again as a regulatory pharmacist before working for the main health service here in a policy role. Eventually from there, I started the PhD with the support of that health service.
JM: You had support from your employer?
MB: I was really fortunate that they were willing to support me to take three years of leave without pay so that I could go and undertake the PhD. I know that not all places are that supportive, and it was really nice to know that once I'd finished the PhD, I could then actually return to the same sort of area in the health service. It’s been interesting coming back and seeing how things have changed. And how I've changed as well.
…it was really nice to know that once I'd finished the PhD, I could then actually return to the same sort of area in the health service. It’s been interesting coming back and seeing how things have changed. And how I've changed as well.
JM: I can imagine! What did you end up researching for your PhD?
MB: My research evaluated some components of an on-site pharmacist intervention in residential aged care facilities as part of a broader cluster randomised control trial that was being conducted in the Australian Capital Territory. The funding was provided by Capital Health Network, and my research looked at three aspects of the intervention: trying to understand whether on-site pharmacists working in the facilities helped interprofessional collaboration, whether on-site pharmacists become part of routine practice in those facilities, and to what extent was that on-site pharmacist intervention delivered as intended.
JM: And what about your findings?
MB: Provided there was a good setup, with good alignment with a proactive on-site pharmacist and aged care facility staff, particularly management and also general practitioners who were able to be on board with the new role, the intervention was able to support a range of improved medication management outcomes. Importantly, there were instances where residents and family members felt that they were more supported and had more information so that they could make more of an informed decision or be able to have more informed discussions with prescribers when it came to medicines. And we also had feedback that nursing staff felt supported, and there were instances where General Practitioners found that if the on-site pharmacist could establish relationships with them, they then were surprised if the on-site pharmacist wasn't there on their usual day, so that was a good outcome.
JM: Sounds like a great outcome - so you've just completed your PhD quite recently. And now you are back with that very generous employer that gave you the time off - what's it like being back?
MB: Sometimes it feels a bit surreal, it's kind of the same sentiments as following any extended leave: some things have changed, but things haven't really changed. It's a funny space. One of the other things is that I'm only working with that health service for a few days a week as I'm also working part-time with another organisation - a non-government organisation (NGO). At the moment, I'm still finding that balance in terms of getting my head around what's happening in one workplace and then putting a different hat on and moving to the other space. It's been really nice to be able to use some of the strategic skills that I've gained while I've been doing the PhD and bringing that back into my role in the health service. And recently, I've been able to support some policy work around voluntary assisted dying, which is really meaningful to me. So I'm really thankful that I came back to the health service and continue to have different opportunities to contribute in different ways.
JM: It sounds like coming back to government and the NGO sector in those dual roles was the plan all along rather than looking at potentially pursuing an academic career, is that correct?
MB: I think I applied for the NGO role because I hadn't really had much exposure to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander health, which is the NGO's focus, and because that was with a medicines team in that space. I just thought I'd throw my hat in the ring and see how things could go. I didn't expect to have that opportunity. And then I needed to kind of let both workplaces know that I wanted to work with both of them and then I had to negotiate being able to do that.
JM: It almost feels a bit like a rom-com where someone's got two suitors and has to say "I want to date you both…"
MB: Yeah, it is and I need to continue having that open communication with both workplaces.
JM: So when you were coming towards the end of the PhD and you had re-entry into the workforce looming, was there anything that you did to prepare for coming back to the “real world”?
MB: Not really - I think part of the reason was because I knew I had a deadline. I had made a commitment to the health service that I would be gone for three years, and then I'd come back. So that set a very clear deadline in my mind, and that helped the process. I think it also helped having gained project management skills from working in the public sector, and then treating my PhD as a three-year work project - that helped as well. And it wasn't like I was going off and pursuing something completely different, I treated it like a work project. I think all of that certainly helped.
JM: That's something that's actually come up in a few of our interviews that we've done: we came in with the intention to ask everyone about what skills from the PhD transferred into their non-academic work. But you just mentioned a skill from your previous work that transferred into the PhD - you mentioned project management, were there other skills that you found transferred from your work-life to your research-life?
MB: I think another skill was being comfortable with setting and maintaining boundaries, even if it meant that I wasn't the “favourite PhD student” - it meant I could draw a line to say ‘I'm not going to do that piece of work if it doesn't add value to the narrative of the PhD I'm doing - I just don't have capacity to do that’. I think that's an important skill. But again, because I was always planning on going back to work for the health service, I didn't feel that I had that pressure to please not just my supervisors, but everyone in the university, just in case they might somehow offer me some type of opportunity in the future. That made a very big difference for me in that environment.
JM: Indeed, it can be so tempting when you're in that research space to just jump on everything.
MB: And you can only do so much of that. That being said, because I treated the PhD like a three-year project, that did give me some space to actually test different job opportunities while I was doing the PhD. So as an example, I was able to do some consulting work with a lovely consulting firm based here in Canberra on a couple of projects that were very meaningful to me. I was also able to serve on the University Council as the Post Graduate Student Representative where I was studying. And I was able to do some research assistant work with one of the supervisors who I was initially working with. I was very fortunate to be working with them before they left and went overseas. So I think there were pros and cons, but it all worked out in the end. It made a huge difference because I just wouldn't have even had any of those opportunities if I had kept working full time in the public sector and hadn't decided to do the PhD.
JM: Very cool that doing the PhD gave you the flexibility to go "oh, I'll give this management consulting thing a crack and see how I like it" and "oh, this project speaks to me, and I want to work on this project, and then I'll step back out of that".
MB: It was good timing, but also really a case of not what I knew, but who I knew with those opportunities.
JM: And so in your recent transition back to your work, what do you think you got from the PhD that you've taken back into the work you're doing now?
MB: It helped me be a little bit more deliberate, and to know that if I need to concentrate then I need to carve out some space to do that deep thinking work. Before the PhD, that wasn't on my radar - I'd just kind of think on the go. The nice thing with the PhD is it can be quite flexible at times and does allow you to do that. So I think that was something that was good for me to learn about myself. The other thing, I guess, would be more related to becoming a lot more, even more than I was already, comfortable with uncertainty. Working in the public sector, there always is that degree of uncertainty where from one day to the next the government of the day might decide that they have great ideas that they just want to be implemented. And that might require you to completely change everything, but you do it because as public servants that's really our core job. Hopefully we can also provide some frank and fearless advice that we can do it but there'll be some challenges that we'll have to mitigate. So that was really helpful for me. And one other thing with a PhD, which I think has really made a difference with my health service job, in particular, is that I've become more comfortable with integrating that strategic 'helicopter' view and the 'in the weeds' view, and then being able to form a cohesive narrative so that it makes sense from both levels, which is really important. I think that's probably one of the big differences, along with becoming a more confident public speaker by presenting at national or international conferences and talking about my papers, or being an invited keynote speaker about pharmacist interventions at an aged care symposium which I did earlier on this year.
JM: I'm thinking about what you're saying about the 'helicopter' and 'in the weeds' view, because when you are doing your own research you have to be able to take that step back and go: 'Where's the overall evidentiary basis? Where are the gaps? What are the competing theories? What does this all look like?' And then you need to be able to design the experiment and collect the data and get very in the weeds. And I think people maybe don't realise that that's a skill at times.
MB: Yeah, I think it might just be because it's all just bundled up in this thing called the PhD. But unpacking it, there are those different elements and I think it's helpful to conceptualise that because sometimes when you're trying to apply for jobs and they want conceptual and analytical skills and strategic thinking, and you're thinking how can I demonstrate that, it becomes a question of finding the right words to convey what you did as part of your PhD in a way that makes sense to someone from a slightly different background.
JM: Yeah, I'm thinking we are both in our day jobs in the public service. And the public service has capability frameworks so when you apply for a job that identifies the need for someone to be 'adept at communication'. And then it is: well, if you can present at a symposium for aged care about pharmacist interventions, you're probably adept at communicating. So you've got a bit of evidence right there that you can do this thing.
MB: Yeah, I guess if someone hasn't yet had exposure to areas outside academia it can be really tricky to know how to address those specific capability requirements: it's some terminology that people aren't necessarily familiar with. And I guess I'd recommend trying to just be okay with not being an expert in that but maybe reaching out to people who are already working in the public sector or in an organisation that you're interested in and having a conversation with them to find out what they suggest and tailor your resume and your application to kind of fit what the expectation is for that organisation when you're applying for a job. The thing is, though, that's a lot of work for each individual job. But hopefully, as you get more comfortable and more familiar with those processes, it becomes a little bit less scary.
JM: Yeah, absolutely. You can look at your last version and looking back on it a couple of weeks later you can think 'what did i like in that cover letter?' or 'what am I a little bit unhappy with' and then tweak it from there. I think that's great advice. That actually brings me to the last question on my list, which is, what advice would you give to someone considering a career switch or for someone who's wrapping up a PhD and they're thinking ‘I'm interested in going into the non-government or the government sectors’ - do you have any advice for them?
MB: Having recently completed a PhD or being close to that, it's all about the research, research and research. And that can extend to learning about jobs: I'm not necessarily talking about 'stalking' people but looking on LinkedIn, just having a bit of a look at what different people are getting up to, reaching out to people and just sort of asking, 'Hey, I'd like to buy you a coffee, just to sit down and find out so what your organisation does'. Maybe just through gathering that information, you might decide that organisation isn't a good fit for you but at least you've got some information to then be able to make some informed decisions about what might work for you as a career moving forward. And if you end up in a different career, and it doesn't quite work, it's not the end of the world. There are always other opportunities along the way, including opportunities you didn't even know existed - that's certainly been my experience, and I'm sure it's been the experience of others as well in this space. Probably the other bit of advice would be to be very mindful that whatever you decide to do does align with what's important to you and your values. And while it's really hard, maybe just try as much as you can not to compare yourself to others. Like just because you're not the Senior Research Fellow of something, something, something with this something grant or something else, it doesn't mean you're a lost cause at all. It just means that you have a different path and different journey. And that is absolutely okay. Whether that's academia or not.
…just because you're not the Senior Research Fellow of something, something, something with this something grant or something else, it doesn't mean you're a lost cause at all. It just means that you have a different path and different journey. And that is absolutely okay.
JM: I love that advice about going for something that aligns with your values because I think sometimes there's a conceit that it's either academia or some drudgery work that you don't care about, that's boring and sterile, and I forget the name of the movie where they ended up smashing the photocopier at the end (Editor’s note: it’s a printer, it’s the film ‘Officespace’, it’s a whole thing). I think some people think, 'well, that's the only other option other than academia' but what I'm hearing you saying is that's not the only other option.
MB: No, definitely no. And I hate to break it to people, but I suspect that sometimes in academia, people might very much want to smash that photocopier too! At the end of the day, it's wonderful if you find a good fit in academia or if you find it somewhere else. But sometimes things don't quite work out no matter where you end up. And I guess it's really just being mindful that no matter what you can do as an individual, if you're trying to work in a system which is set up in a particular way, then sometimes things will happen that will be absolutely beyond your control. So being okay with making a decision that works for you, like if you actually do need to have a consistent paycheck each fortnight because you are a person who has to be able to pay a mortgage or has caring responsibilities - that's life!
JM: And, as you said before, if a particular path or job doesn't pan out, that's not the end of the world. There are other paths and other jobs.
MB: I think there's a real narrative that it's one way or the other, but there are so many other ways. And it really does depend on where you're at and what you're interested in. You might get out of academia and then do a different role, and then you might find there's another thing that you didn't know about and then you go in that direction. Or you might decide that you want to do a mix of academia and not academia. It really does just need to be something that works for you. I think one of the things for someone like me who's recently completed a PhD, is that at the moment I'm grappling with the fact that I still want to do everything. I'm working part time at a health service, I'm working part time at an NGO and I am also doing some casual research assistant work still - it's hard to let go when you want to do everything. And it's okay that it's hard to let go. But I will have to do that at some point, probably sooner rather than later I suspect. I love the idea of having everything at once - but you can't, not realistically. And if one door closes, whatever that door is, then other doors will have to open - especially in what I've been seeing in the current job market, there does seem to be support for moving around, trying different things. Hopefully that will also make things a little bit less scary for thinking about doing a career switch!
And with that, we thank Miranda for sharing her story with us.
We’re left thinking about that idea Miranda raised of ‘all the options’: how it can sometimes feel really tricky to know which option to pick, and how sometimes the selected option pans out and sometimes it doesn’t.
It seems we pick up skills and experiences along the way nonetheless though! Perhaps the PhD is no different: it’s another opportunity to develop skills that might well open up (or start a chain of events that leads to) new options that you didn’t even know existed – and all of a sudden another door may open!
If you’ve followed a door into the non-academic world after your PhD, and you are interested in sharing your story, please get in touch with us via our LinkedIn pages - Sam, Jonathan - we’d love to hear from you.
Interviews have been edited for length and clarity. Views, thoughts, and opinions expressed by persons interviewed in this series are solely that of the persons interviewed and do not reflect the views, opinions, or position of Sam, Jonathan or Sequitur Consulting.